Ski Marathons

against the resistance of the snow

Gene, come on, the friction of pavement is greater than that of the
snow, no matter how you put it, I don't see runners "gliding" downhill
on pavement better than skiers. No matter how much concentration one
needs, downhills in XC racing are the recovery phase.

I can (could) ski the Birkie (50K) in under 2:30. I would be lucky to
break 3 hrs in a running marathon.

wrote:
Runners with decent technique and training float downhills using
relatively little energy. How much skiers can do that depends on the
course. And on a lots of courses, maybe most, rest is often either
short or effectively eliminated by corners and extended downhills,
etc. Remember, skiing most technical and extended downhills (e.g.,
Marquette) requires a great deal of concentration, as well as physical
movement. Road runners don't typically face those demands in nearly
the same quantity.

The main difference here is that no running course, except pure
hill-climbing courses, are nearly as hilly as an average world cup xc
course.

Marathon xc courses otoh, are effectively flat compared to Holmenkollen
trails.


Afterthought: Cross-country skiers are commonly referred to as
the most physically fit athletes among all sports. I don't know if
that's really true, but to the extent it is, it's because they have to
be; i.e., the physical demands are greater. Maybe I'm missing
something, but I'm surprised at the discussion because I would think to
x-c skiers it would be a no-brainer.

The research I have seen (google Seiler) show that olympic rowers are
similar to xc skiers:

The key point is that both activities tries to optimally use all the
major muscle groups, whereas a (flat) distance runner is of course
limited to the energy output of his/her legs.

BTW, I consider it to be a no-brainer that skiing is easier, simply
because I have many times trekked much farther on skis in a single day
than I have ever been able to do on foot. I.e. energy use/km is
significantly lower!

In a xc race however, it is quite probable that energy use/hour is
higher than for the winner of the NY Marathon, simply because the
Holmenkollen 50K winner is using all those upper body muscles as well.

Terje
--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

The key point is that both activities tries to optimally use all the
major muscle groups, whereas a (flat) distance runner is of course
limited to the energy output of his/her legs.

Yes

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 21:47:46 -0800 (PST)
" wrote:

against the resistance of the snow

Gene, come on, the friction of pavement is greater than that of the
snow, no matter how you put it, I don't see runners "gliding" downhill
on pavement better than skiers. No matter how much concentration one
needs, downhills in XC racing are the recovery phase.

I can (could) ski the Birkie (50K) in under 2:30. I would be lucky to
break 3 hrs in a running marathon.


The paradox is that because primarily one muscle group is used less
can be accomplished, fatigue sets in earlier per pace, at least for most
of us. Skiing uses more muscle groups, but switches emphasis enough per
terrain to compensate overall.

I hope you're talking tongue in cheek about the effects on effort of
the friction of asphalt. Even the best skiers have to "work" most
downhills, mentally and physically, while good runners are able to let
go. Different in trail running.

Gene

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:09:18 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 21:47:46 -0800 (PST)
" wrote:

against the resistance of the snow

Gene, come on, the friction of pavement is greater than that of the
snow, no matter how you put it, I don't see runners "gliding" downhill
on pavement better than skiers. No matter how much concentration one
needs, downhills in XC racing are the recovery phase.

I can (could) ski the Birkie (50K) in under 2:30. I would be lucky to
break 3 hrs in a running marathon.


The paradox is that because primarily one muscle group is used less
can be accomplished, fatigue sets in earlier per pace, at least for most
of us. Skiing uses more muscle groups, but switches emphasis enough per
terrain to compensate overall.

I hope you're talking tongue in cheek about the effects on effort of
the friction of asphalt. Even the best skiers have to "work" most
downhills, mentally and physically, while good runners are able to let
go. Different in trail running.

Gene

I liken a runner going down hill to a car in "2nd gear". :-)

Ben

wrote:
I hope you're talking tongue in cheek about the effects on effort of
the friction of asphalt. Even the best skiers have to "work" most

This is simply wrong!

I have skied a lot with either Polar or Garmin pulse monitoring, and it
is very obvious that even the trickiest downhill sections, skating
around icy corner while trying to maintain a tuck, allow my pulse to
drop way down.

It is quite possible that a less experienced skier would gain less,
simply because the downhill would be much more scary, but for all of us
here, I assume that hasn't been a real consideration for many years?

downhills, mentally and physically, while good runners are able to let
go. Different in trail running.

Even in orienteering my pulse drops when running downhill through
heather, bracken and rocks, but the effect is much less pronounced than
on nice paths.

I have noticed though that when pushing really hard (90-95% max) my
pulse, as measured by Garmin, can increase further for some seconds
after cresting a hill. Is this simply an averaging/algorithm artifact,
or my body working even harder to try to get rid of lactate buildup?

Terje
--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Even the best skiers have to "work" most
downhills,

Gene, actually I was no talking tongue in cheek,sorry if I made it
sound that way. Just what kind of downhills are we talking?
Considering the Birkie a standard racing course it's downhills are
there for recovery. Unless they decide include a giant slalom course
along the way.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 23:36:37 -0800 (PST)
" wrote:

Even the best skiers have to "work" most
downhills,

Gene, actually I was no talking tongue in cheek,sorry if I made it
sound that way. Just what kind of downhills are we talking?
Considering the Birkie a standard racing course it's downhills are
there for recovery. Unless they decide include a giant slalom course
along the way.

When you speak of recovery, what exactly are you referring to? In
talking about muscle groups, I've been focusing on propulsion and have
left aside the heart. That is, I'm not equating pulse with work, tho
the two are obviously related. Relatively lower pulse does not equal
rest, or the absence of substantial energy expenditure.

Even on the best powder day, most of (American) Birkie's downhills
require some attention and maneuvering. In other conditions, a fair of
energy expenditure can be required (I'm recalling the left sweeping
downhill at 7.5k(?), where on some days it's been a bloody gulch for
anything but the very best skiers). If you watch the videos of WC
courses, many of the downhills are not even relative freebies. And the
way Justyne Kowalczyk skis them...

It would be good if we found some data on this.

Gene

On Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:30:58 -0700
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 23:36:37 -0800 (PST)
" wrote:

Even the best skiers have to "work" most
downhills,

Gene, actually I was no talking tongue in cheek,sorry if I made it
sound that way. Just what kind of downhills are we talking?
Considering the Birkie a standard racing course it's downhills are
there for recovery. Unless they decide include a giant slalom
course along the way.

When you speak of recovery, what exactly are you referring to? In
talking about muscle groups, I've been focusing on propulsion and have
left aside the heart. That is, I'm not equating pulse with work, tho
the two are obviously related. Relatively lower pulse does not equal
rest, or the absence of substantial energy expenditure.

Even on the best powder day, most of (American) Birkie's downhills
require some attention and maneuvering. In other conditions, a fair of
energy expenditure can be required (I'm recalling the left sweeping
downhill at 7.5k(?), where on some days it's been a bloody gulch for
anything but the very best skiers). If you watch the videos of WC
courses, many of the downhills are not even relative freebies. And
the way Justyne Kowalczyk skis them...

A ski marathon report like this from the most recent SkiPost reminds me
of how much work downhills can be compared to running:

"Thank you both for the info before the race. Here is my brief race
report. This is a relatively small race OSCR....maybe 50 skiers? I
knew 2 people who had finished right at the 3 hr mark last year. I
went out in a group with them. 20 minutes into it I decided I was
going too hard to sustain that pace so drifted out the back of 10-12
skiers at the start of the big slog.....roughly 1.5 hours and 2000 ft
of climbing. Half way up I passed one of my "pacers", 3/4 of the way
up I passed the other as the group I had been in clearly came apart.
Snow conditions changed from very fast at the bottom to pretty slow.
The long descent I had to skate the whole way....tucking out of the
question (darn it)...

(http://campaign.r20.constantcontact....F17cQ-NQ%3D%3D)

Gene

For a ski marathon newbie but a run marathon vet, I'd say that skiing
will shock you much less but work you lots more.

Skiing is easy on the joints and is low in shock value, but energy
consumption for skiing could somewhat be measured in what you need to
eat. I think you need to eat quite a bit more in skiing compared to
running. And you can handle somewhat more solid food due to the
smoothness of the action.

The rests of downhills do involve some legwork and static hold-strain
-- but the heart slows down. This lets you then work it even harder
afterward.

I think that Gene has a point about downhills being lots of work *of a
kind* especially at the WC level. Some cit skiers like to rest the
downhills, and I do too if I'm happy with the group I'm in, but I also
have sometimes kept the hammer down on the downs if they have tricky
turns or chances to gain time and jamming the downhill corners hard
and feeling plenty of leg quiver after they were over.

Skiing is somewhat famous for the bleery uphill slathers you get in
because you can recover on the down. In a running race you can't dig
in as deep because you never get to recover.

Cycling might be even more famous for the going-insane portions
because of the sometimes known chances for rest. They go thru a lot of
eating in an event, too.

When I did a big trail ski day the other week, we each ate 5 heavy
pizza slices and a ton of energy bars and drinks. We did a lot of WORK
that day! Lots of glide, too... Lots of big hills...