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getting used to new boots



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 16th 04, 06:01 AM
Janet
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

Does anyone have any advice on what to do to get used to new boots?

snip


Don't worry too much about how new boots feel the first day. As long as
they were the right ones (i.e., correct size, enough room for your
shaped foot/calf, etc.) you need to ski on them a few days at least
before making minor adjustments. They will feel different performance
wise (than your old "intermediate" boots") and with how much sloppiness
they allow you to get away with (but since you can tell the difference,
you'll know when you are falling back on bad habits and do something to
correct it). Since they felt better as the day went on, I would just
attribute it to your feet getting used to something new (my feet do the
same thing with any new shoes).

Also, with me, no matter how well fit and comfortable my ski boots are,
my feet rebel the first ski day of the season. I think that's because I
wear sandels all summer and then switch to very comfortable sneakers.
Sometimes I swear I can hear my feet saying "why can't someone invent a
ski binding that you can use with sneakers". But after the first day,
all this goes away....

Janet

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  #12  
Old December 16th 04, 07:12 AM
Monique Y. Mudama
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Hey ... um ... I realize I was sounding kinda grumpy in my response to you,
and now I realize why. The question I *meant* to ask was, are there
techniques you use to help yourself get accustomed to a new boot's responses
to your moves, and/or are there ways to accelerate the break-in process?

I think the fitting suggestions irked me because I just a *lot* of time and a
*lot* of money getting these boots, and the idea that I got the wrong boot is,
well, not one my brain will accept, especially since this is the closest I've
ever gotten to pain-free skiing, and after all, it's only been a day of
skiing, so I think it's a little soon to throw in the towel =)

On 2004-12-16, VtSkier penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2004-12-15, VtSkier penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

I tried them out for the first time yesterday, at Beaver Creek. Eric was
in a mogul mood (as per usual), so that's most of what we did. Ripsaw was
the best; it doesn't get much sun, so the snow was still nice.

Doing bumps in "racing" boots? Could be a problem right there.


Who said anything about racing boots?


Okay, "almost" racing boots. My previous boots were X-wave 10's, same boot
as yours, stiffer for my over 200# heft. Also, the X-wave line, especially
the 10 is the same as the CrossMax 10 except that the cuff of the CrossMax
is riveted for less fore-aft flex, and can almost certainly be called a
racing boot with a comfortable liner.


I didn't realize they could be considered a racing boot. I was just looking
for something that wouldn't squoosh my foot =) Better control was a bonus.

So, did I accidentally buy the wrong boot? I know that "racing" boots exist,
but I think of them as much stiffer than your ordinary boot. Also, why would
a racing boot be bad for bumps? I've never heard of a "bump boot." And the
ones I got aren't even the stiffest women's in the line, which would be the
9s, right? I believe the number only indicates stiffness?

I don't think I've ever heard anything from an instructor or fellow skier
about pushing against the back of the boot before. Maybe that's because I
have such a bad habit of sitting back that they just wanted me to focus on
moving forward.

Probably didn't want you to get used to pushing the back of the boot, but
you will find, as you progress, that there are times when you may want to
feel the back of your boot at certain times during (ending) a turn.


I believe you, but I think the instructors are right. Right now, I have a
really hard time staying forward enough, so I need to concentrate on that for
a while. Thinking about sometimes being back, as well, will probably make it
even harder to stick to a forward position =)

Of *course* being in the backseat in the bumps is a no-control situation.
My point was that my old boots were at least slightly tolerant of this bad
behavior, while my new boots will have none of it. I have to be in the
driver's seat. Like I said, pretty sure it's a good thing, but it's always
painful when you're confronted with your own bad habits.

I have never had boots which were "tolerant" of being in the back seat in
bumps. If I was there, I was out of control and needed to stop and regroup.


I don't know how to explain it. I am not good enough in the bumps to always
stick to the right form. It just seems like the new boots won't brook that
sort of nonsense from me. Maybe it's because the old boots didn't have as
aggressive a lean, so I couldn't tell as easily when my legs were back. In
the new ones, it's distinctly uncomfortable to have bad form.

Sounds to me like your are getting good advice.


(I assume you mean from the fitter's.) I hope so. Sometimes I think they're
my saviors; other days I think they're just trying to get me out the door, or
that they're in a hurry to fix the problem they think I have rather than the
one I am describing. And after my latest experience, there's the feeling that
the Surefoot guarantee is a smokescreen. But then again, I had the boots for
five years. But then again, they *never* got them to fit me. They said that
plastic is malleable and they could "eventually" get my old boot into the
shape of the new boot I liked. Right. How many hours would I waste when I
could have been skiing? And if that's their theory, then really, they'll
never "put out" for their guarantee, because they could just melt the freaking
boot down and start over!

Sounds OK to me too. I've just been doing this for so long that I know what
needs to be moved, tell the tech that and we can avoid a whole lot of
call-backs.


Yeah; I suggested a punch-out, and the guy admitted that it's entirely
possible I'll want one, but I agree with his conservative approach.

Recently, SureFoot made footbeds for both my Raichle's and my AT
boots.


Okay, now's when I ask: what's an AT boot?

c) the liner hasn't packed out yet

Could be, and I think more likely with your custom liners.


It's funny, because one of the things they told me is that the foam liner
wouldn't need packing out. But then I think what they really meant was "it
will only need 2-3 days instead of several weeks." Or maybe what they really
meant is, "We'll say anything to get you to buy one of these expensive liners
because we make such a sick profit on them." It's so hard to tell =/


Welcome to my world. I have big calves. Even with women's boots and
having moved the buckles out to the third hole, the boot is still pretty
tight on the loosest setting.

If I'm not mistaken, you may be able to punch a fourth hole, I think there
is enough material. Alternately, I think you can get a longer ratchet for
the buckle.


There's a little red extra piece that I use for my first pass. I'm not sure
it's meant to hold during actual skiing, though.

Actually, what I'm hoping is that I'll get back into shape soon and the
calf-size issue will just kind of ... fade away.

Your buckling technique sounds right to me, but I'll bet as time goes on
that you will find just the right tightness to last you all day, or maybe
with just one "tightening".


Yeah, just one is about where I usually am. Of course, these boots are new so
I'm still fiddling.

If you really do get cold feet often enough to be bothersome, there is no
shame in boot heaters. Some of my best friends use boot heaters.


I decided to hold off and see if simply wearing a properly-fitting boot is
enough. After all, I just spent a *lot* of money on these things, and I'm
hoping that without the foot pain, there will be enough circulation that maybe
yet another gizmo won't be necessary.

Also, my wife has a pair of mittens which have a jell inside which moves
heat from warmer areas to the finger areas. She's had them for a long time
and swears by them. Remember, I said mittens. Hotfingers of a couple of
years ago said their gloves (and mittens) moved heat from one part of the
glove to another. I've also seen electrically heated gloves, not unlike
boots.


After some consultation with the folks on this NG, I got GraniteGear mittens
as well as wicking glove liners to wear underneath on very cold days. These
are my first mittens, and so far they're not nearly as much of a pain as I'd
feared they'd be =P


Seems to me that you are clear in your direction regarding boots. I hope the
X-Wave's work well for you as they are truly a great boot. I know you post a
lot regarding lots of things about skiing and your present postings about
boots and the many responses you got from me and others may well be of help
to you and to other people looking for advice on what will and how to
improve their skiing. As you have found already, good boots will make a
measurable and immediate improvement on your skiing.


What about them makes them a great boot? (Other than that they are wide
enough for my foot.) Earlier, it sounded like you didn't think it would be a
good boot for bumps. I really need a boot that will happily ski every part of
the mountain, and I was told these will.

If nothing else, I figure that the pain I experienced with my old boots must
have had an effect on my foot position and therefore my stance. If these
boots eliminate the pain, I think that will already be a huge step forward for
my technique.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

  #13  
Old December 16th 04, 12:05 PM
Mary Malmros
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klaus wrote:
Mary Malmros wrote:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:



Frankly, I think all of your advice applies to boots that have been broken in,
not boots that have been worn for a day. As I said, I had some cramping on
the *first run ever* in these boots,



I don't think I've ever had a day of skiing when I didn't get _some_
foot cramps.



Are you kidding? If that's the case, you need to get some better
boots. Or a better boot fitter. There is no reason to suffer like a
Japanese geisha.


I'm not sure which misapprehension to correct first: the one in which
you apparently believe that "Japanese geishas" (as opposed to some other
kind?) had their feet bound, or the one in which you believe that "some
foot cramps" are on a par with the pain of foot-binding. "Some foot
cramps" don't mean agonizing pain every second of every day; they mean
that now and again, you get a cramp. And my boot fitter is just fine,
thanks.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

  #14  
Old December 16th 04, 02:42 PM
VtSkier
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Posts: n/a
Default

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
Hey ... um ... I realize I was sounding kinda grumpy in my response to you,
and now I realize why. The question I *meant* to ask was, are there
techniques you use to help yourself get accustomed to a new boot's responses
to your moves, and/or are there ways to accelerate the break-in process?

I think the fitting suggestions irked me because I just a *lot* of time and a
*lot* of money getting these boots, and the idea that I got the wrong boot is,
well, not one my brain will accept, especially since this is the closest I've
ever gotten to pain-free skiing, and after all, it's only been a day of
skiing, so I think it's a little soon to throw in the towel =)

On 2004-12-16, VtSkier penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

On 2004-12-15, VtSkier penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:


I tried them out for the first time yesterday, at Beaver Creek. Eric was
in a mogul mood (as per usual), so that's most of what we did. Ripsaw was
the best; it doesn't get much sun, so the snow was still nice.

Doing bumps in "racing" boots? Could be a problem right there.

Who said anything about racing boots?


Okay, "almost" racing boots. My previous boots were X-wave 10's, same boot
as yours, stiffer for my over 200# heft. Also, the X-wave line, especially
the 10 is the same as the CrossMax 10 except that the cuff of the CrossMax
is riveted for less fore-aft flex, and can almost certainly be called a
racing boot with a comfortable liner.



I didn't realize they could be considered a racing boot. I was just looking
for something that wouldn't squoosh my foot =) Better control was a bonus.

So, did I accidentally buy the wrong boot? I know that "racing" boots exist,
but I think of them as much stiffer than your ordinary boot. Also, why would
a racing boot be bad for bumps? I've never heard of a "bump boot." And the
ones I got aren't even the stiffest women's in the line, which would be the
9s, right? I believe the number only indicates stiffness?


I don't think I've ever heard anything from an instructor or fellow skier
about pushing against the back of the boot before. Maybe that's because I
have such a bad habit of sitting back that they just wanted me to focus on
moving forward.


Probably didn't want you to get used to pushing the back of the boot, but
you will find, as you progress, that there are times when you may want to
feel the back of your boot at certain times during (ending) a turn.



I believe you, but I think the instructors are right. Right now, I have a
really hard time staying forward enough, so I need to concentrate on that for
a while. Thinking about sometimes being back, as well, will probably make it
even harder to stick to a forward position =)


Of *course* being in the backseat in the bumps is a no-control situation.
My point was that my old boots were at least slightly tolerant of this bad
behavior, while my new boots will have none of it. I have to be in the
driver's seat. Like I said, pretty sure it's a good thing, but it's always
painful when you're confronted with your own bad habits.


I have never had boots which were "tolerant" of being in the back seat in
bumps. If I was there, I was out of control and needed to stop and regroup.



I don't know how to explain it. I am not good enough in the bumps to always
stick to the right form. It just seems like the new boots won't brook that
sort of nonsense from me. Maybe it's because the old boots didn't have as
aggressive a lean, so I couldn't tell as easily when my legs were back. In
the new ones, it's distinctly uncomfortable to have bad form.


Sounds to me like your are getting good advice.



(I assume you mean from the fitter's.) I hope so. Sometimes I think they're
my saviors; other days I think they're just trying to get me out the door, or
that they're in a hurry to fix the problem they think I have rather than the
one I am describing. And after my latest experience, there's the feeling that
the Surefoot guarantee is a smokescreen. But then again, I had the boots for
five years. But then again, they *never* got them to fit me. They said that
plastic is malleable and they could "eventually" get my old boot into the
shape of the new boot I liked. Right. How many hours would I waste when I
could have been skiing? And if that's their theory, then really, they'll
never "put out" for their guarantee, because they could just melt the freaking
boot down and start over!


Sounds OK to me too. I've just been doing this for so long that I know what
needs to be moved, tell the tech that and we can avoid a whole lot of
call-backs.



Yeah; I suggested a punch-out, and the guy admitted that it's entirely
possible I'll want one, but I agree with his conservative approach.


Recently, SureFoot made footbeds for both my Raichle's and my AT
boots.



Okay, now's when I ask: what's an AT boot?


c) the liner hasn't packed out yet


Could be, and I think more likely with your custom liners.



It's funny, because one of the things they told me is that the foam liner
wouldn't need packing out. But then I think what they really meant was "it
will only need 2-3 days instead of several weeks." Or maybe what they really
meant is, "We'll say anything to get you to buy one of these expensive liners
because we make such a sick profit on them." It's so hard to tell =/


Welcome to my world. I have big calves. Even with women's boots and
having moved the buckles out to the third hole, the boot is still pretty
tight on the loosest setting.


If I'm not mistaken, you may be able to punch a fourth hole, I think there
is enough material. Alternately, I think you can get a longer ratchet for
the buckle.



There's a little red extra piece that I use for my first pass. I'm not sure
it's meant to hold during actual skiing, though.

Actually, what I'm hoping is that I'll get back into shape soon and the
calf-size issue will just kind of ... fade away.


Your buckling technique sounds right to me, but I'll bet as time goes on
that you will find just the right tightness to last you all day, or maybe
with just one "tightening".



Yeah, just one is about where I usually am. Of course, these boots are new so
I'm still fiddling.


If you really do get cold feet often enough to be bothersome, there is no
shame in boot heaters. Some of my best friends use boot heaters.



I decided to hold off and see if simply wearing a properly-fitting boot is
enough. After all, I just spent a *lot* of money on these things, and I'm
hoping that without the foot pain, there will be enough circulation that maybe
yet another gizmo won't be necessary.


Also, my wife has a pair of mittens which have a jell inside which moves
heat from warmer areas to the finger areas. She's had them for a long time
and swears by them. Remember, I said mittens. Hotfingers of a couple of
years ago said their gloves (and mittens) moved heat from one part of the
glove to another. I've also seen electrically heated gloves, not unlike
boots.



After some consultation with the folks on this NG, I got GraniteGear mittens
as well as wicking glove liners to wear underneath on very cold days. These
are my first mittens, and so far they're not nearly as much of a pain as I'd
feared they'd be =P



Seems to me that you are clear in your direction regarding boots. I hope the
X-Wave's work well for you as they are truly a great boot. I know you post a
lot regarding lots of things about skiing and your present postings about
boots and the many responses you got from me and others may well be of help
to you and to other people looking for advice on what will and how to
improve their skiing. As you have found already, good boots will make a
measurable and immediate improvement on your skiing.



What about them makes them a great boot? (Other than that they are wide
enough for my foot.) Earlier, it sounded like you didn't think it would be a
good boot for bumps. I really need a boot that will happily ski every part of
the mountain, and I was told these will.


Salomon does know how to build a boot which works.

Back a little way I described how the CrossMax boot differed from the
X-Wave? In my experience and except for Raichle Flexons, racing boots
have no flex except bending. My boots prior to the X-Waves were Salomon
Force 10 which DID have riveted cuffs. I was never comfortable in bumps
until I got the X-Waves which DID NOT have riveted cuffs and DID get a
fair bit of flex from the hinge at the ankle.

Oh, yeah, from a previous question. AT boots are Alpine Touring boots.
Similar to Tele boots but without the bellows and with a shape which
will fit an alpine ski binding.

If nothing else, I figure that the pain I experienced with my old boots must
have had an effect on my foot position and therefore my stance. If these
boots eliminate the pain, I think that will already be a huge step forward for
my technique.


From a long time ago, when most boots were soft and the flex was not
consistent because they were made of leather, I (and probably everybody
else) used to buckle them as tight as we could just to have control. I
would actually wear out a pair of boots in a year or less. There was
just nothing left for support by March. I would suffer every day that I
went out with foot cramps, coming especially from the outside of my
arches. My bunions weren't so bad then, but the shape was still pretty
much out of the norm and therefore away from standard boot lasts.
Tighten as much as possible for the run and unbuckle in excruciating
pain as we stopped at the bottom to ride the lift. Standard procedure. I
still see people doing this and I'm sure it's due to boots which don't
fit right and/or are too soft. It's often people in low-end rental type
boots that show this behavior.

  #15  
Old December 16th 04, 02:53 PM
MoonMan
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Posts: n/a
Default

VtSkier wrote:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:


snip

From a long time ago, when most boots were soft and the flex was not
consistent because they were made of leather, I (and probably
everybody else) used to buckle them as tight as we could just to have
control. I would actually wear out a pair of boots in a year or less.
There was just nothing left for support by March. I would suffer
every day that I went out with foot cramps, coming especially from
the outside of my arches. My bunions weren't so bad then, but the
shape was still pretty much out of the norm and therefore away from
standard boot lasts. Tighten as much as possible for the run and
unbuckle in excruciating pain as we stopped at the bottom to ride the
lift. Standard procedure. I still see people doing this and I'm sure
it's due to boots which don't fit right and/or are too soft. It's
often people in low-end rental type boots that show this behavior.


Racers do as well as they crank the boots up ridiculousely tight to get
better control.


--
Chris *:-)

Downhill Good, Uphill BAD!

www.suffolkvikings.org.uk

  #16  
Old December 16th 04, 03:55 PM
klaus
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Posts: n/a
Default

Mary Malmros wrote:
I'm not sure which misapprehension to correct first: the one in which
you apparently believe that "Japanese geishas" (as opposed to some other
kind?) had their feet bound, or the one in which you believe that "some
foot cramps" are on a par with the pain of foot-binding. "Some foot
cramps" don't mean agonizing pain every second of every day; they mean
that now and again, you get a cramp. And my boot fitter is just fine,
thanks.


If you get foot cramps every time you ski, you are doing something
wrong, and trying to convince others that this is normal is a
disservice to skiers since it is completely unneccessary if you have
good properly fitted boots.

-klaus

..

  #17  
Old December 16th 04, 05:12 PM
Mary Malmros
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Default

klaus wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

I'm not sure which misapprehension to correct first: the one in which
you apparently believe that "Japanese geishas" (as opposed to some other
kind?) had their feet bound, or the one in which you believe that "some
foot cramps" are on a par with the pain of foot-binding. "Some foot
cramps" don't mean agonizing pain every second of every day; they mean
that now and again, you get a cramp. And my boot fitter is just fine,
thanks.



If you get foot cramps every time you ski, you are doing something
wrong, and trying to convince others that this is normal is a
disservice to skiers since it is completely unneccessary if you have
good properly fitted boots.


Whatever you say, klaus. You said so, so it must be so.

By the way, did I ever tell you that the earth is flat? I said so, so
it must be so.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

  #18  
Old December 16th 04, 05:35 PM
lal_truckee
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Posts: n/a
Default

MoonMan wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:



snip

From a long time ago, when most boots were soft and the flex was not
consistent because they were made of leather, I (and probably
everybody else) used to buckle them as tight as we could just to have
control. I would actually wear out a pair of boots in a year or less.
There was just nothing left for support by March. I would suffer
every day that I went out with foot cramps, coming especially from
the outside of my arches. My bunions weren't so bad then, but the
shape was still pretty much out of the norm and therefore away from
standard boot lasts. Tighten as much as possible for the run and
unbuckle in excruciating pain as we stopped at the bottom to ride the
lift. Standard procedure. I still see people doing this and I'm sure
it's due to boots which don't fit right and/or are too soft. It's
often people in low-end rental type boots that show this behavior.



Racers do as well as they crank the boots up ridiculousely tight to get
better control.


Many do - not all - some racers (even at a high level) are able to get
boots fitted well enough that tightness and pain are not synonymous (I'm
mainly talking of current US WC skiers I watched when they were
teenagers. Some unbuckled because of pain - some unbuckled because it
was cool, and some didn't bother - didn't seem to be a direct
correlation to winning, either, or to eventually skiing in the circus.)

In any case the topic is recreational skiers - IMO their boots should
never hurt enough to require unbuckling - not even on extended breaks
like lunch - you put them on in the morning, you take them off when
you're done for the day - they stay on during the day. If unbuckling
relieves pain, get back to the shop that sold them and demand adjustments.

Those leather boots were a big hassle - the leather would get wet, the
soles would warp, the boots'd get looser during a day of skiing as the
leather stretched, they needed constant waxing. When you removed them
they had to immediately be clamped onto a boot-tree so the sole could
dry flat - ah, those were the days when skiing was skiing and men were
men and women were bunnies, and palms of your gloves were ripped from
rope burns. I miss those days. Hell, I miss yesterday - carpe diem!

  #19  
Old December 16th 04, 05:38 PM
lal_truckee
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Default

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2004-12-16, DZN penned:

I don't think you can be sure of how a boot fits until you've had at least a
week of skiing. The may never be comfortable, but I've seen lots of people
say they hate their new boots one week and later say they love them. (I've
observed this phenomenon more with women than men but I'm not sure my
sample size is large enough for that to be statistically significant.)



I agree. Okay, now I realize what I meant to ask!

What I meant to ask is this:

Are there exercises or practice techniques that you use when you get a new
boot to get yourself accustomed to them? I'm thinking stuff like, exercises
you can do on the slope to teach yourself how they might respond differently
from your old boots.

That's what I *meant* to ask.


Presumably new boots will transmit induced forces to the binding/ski
faster and more accurately than your old boots (otherwise, why change?)
Hence there are two issues - comfort and response. Most of the
conversation has focused on comfort - the boots shouldn't hurt; but
there may be a fitting period while the inner boot shifts around to
accommodate the details of your foot. That's reasonable, and the way to
make it happen is to put down some miles - go skiing.

The response issue also makes new boots feel awkward - you may feel as
if you've forgotten how to ski. Be more aggressive - i.e. be as quick as
your boots - they will respond to any twitch, so make the twitches
deliberately, not accidentally. In short order you will be back on top
of things and a better skier.

  #20  
Old December 16th 04, 05:42 PM
Monique Y. Mudama
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Default

On 2004-12-16, Janet penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

Does anyone have any advice on what to do to get used to new boots?

snip


Don't worry too much about how new boots feel the first day. As long as they
were the right ones (i.e., correct size, enough room for your shaped
foot/calf, etc.) you need to ski on them a few days at least before making
minor adjustments.


After much whining on my part, the shop at Beaver Creek did work on the liners
just a bit, smooshing down the liner where the bone below my pinky was making
too much contact. It helped a *lot*. I figure it's what my foot would have
done in time, but why make my foot do it when there are other means available?

Also, with me, no matter how well fit and comfortable my ski boots are, my
feet rebel the first ski day of the season. I think that's because I wear
sandels all summer and then switch to very comfortable sneakers. Sometimes
I swear I can hear my feet saying "why can't someone invent a ski binding
that you can use with sneakers". But after the first day, all this goes
away....


I blame my shoe (ice skate, ski boot, etc) troubles on my martial arts
history. I have spent a *lot* of time barefoot. My understanding is that if
you don't wear shoes, your feet will broaden. My feet work *great* when bare;
it's just when I have to put stuff on them that I get into trouble =P

--
monique
Longmont, CO

 




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