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Snow tires?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 28th 10, 03:26 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/2010 05:03 AM, BrritSki wrote:
On 28/11/2010 10:31, Richard Henry wrote:
On Nov 28, 12:46 am, wrote:
On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote:

On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going....

Wow, what a great thread, very interesting.

I don't do much driving on snow, but have a Subaru Outback and when I do
meet poor conditions it's great. When I bought it (used) it had new
all-season tyres on and I was surprised how well they lasted.

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


I didn't know you could disengage ABS.


What I meant was inadvertently got into a situation where it kicked in.

Not counting the times when I first got each car and deliberately
triggered it so I knew what it felt like - if you don't, it can come as
a big surprise just at a time when you don't need more distractions !


The ABS in my truck sounds like you've driven over
a "rumble strip" in the road. My truck also doesn't
have traction control, but a car my wife had once
did. That's where my opinion of it comes from.
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  #22  
Old November 28th 10, 03:36 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
pigo[_2_]
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Posts: 2,376
Default Snow tires?

On Nov 27, 7:58*pm, VtSkier wrote:

With your truck (is it 4WD?)


My truck is 4x4. But it really came in handy with the airport vans I
used to drive at ski areas. Vail/Colorado didn't salt so the roads
developed more ICE and made it more appropriate there.

I used the handbrake trick too. because you can slow AND steer.
  #23  
Old November 28th 10, 03:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
pigo[_2_]
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Posts: 2,376
Default Snow tires?

On Nov 28, 1:46*am, BrritSki wrote:

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


The problem I have with ABS is that it doesn't allow me to drive like
I learned. And it's hard to unlearn. When I first got it I was still
doing the "brake pump" thing. I heard that the procedure with ABS is
to stomp the peddle and the brakes do the pumping. Is there another
method?

  #24  
Old November 28th 10, 03:55 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/27/2010 11:47 PM, Walt wrote:
On 11/27/2010 9:05 PM, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/27/2010 05:56 PM, Walt wrote:



Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into "all season" tires that
are "almost as good as snowtires". Get dedicated snows.


While I believe this is true, and it's more true for
a "regular" car (2 wheel drive) than for either an
"all wheel drive (full time 4 wheel drive)" or selectable
4 wheel drive.


I've driven 4WD vehicles with all season tires and FWD vehicles with
real snow tires and I'll take FWD with real snow tires in a heartbeat.
It's not even close for most winter driving situations.


Let's discuss driving conditions.

You're in the upper midwest. I suspect that you
have snowy driving conditions on a regular basis.
I'd like to hear from you how the local road crews
handle keeping roads clear.

Even the lake effect snow areas of northern
New York roads are handled differently than they
are here in Vermont.

Here's what the crews do here. Unless it is
pnuking snow, they will salt the roads a lot more
than they plow. This causes a slush condition in
which you want to dig through to gain traction
from the pavement below. I think they do this
because most of our storms happen at relatively
high temps, 20 degrees to 30 degrees. Salt
works at this temp range and by the end of the
storm event the roads are pretty much clear
to pavement.

Snow falling at those temps on a road tends to
get polished down to near ice before the plows
can get to it and if they are plowing, they are
doing so with a truck that is also dumping salt.

My 4WD vehicles with all weather tires track
better in the slush than any FWD car with snow
tires that I have ever owned. The traction on
slippery going on back roads is also better with
the 4WD AllWeather as it is with the FWD and
snows.

Also, I might point out that road crews around
here don't always wait for the storm to start.
I've seen them out putting down salt before the
first snowflake.

So, in my conditions, my 4WD vehicle with GOOD
all weather tires is more than acceptable and
IMO better than FWD with snows. Then, between
storms, I have a comfortable ride and better
gas mileage.

You might also note that the signs they post
in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that
you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does
not specify snow tires.



Look at the tread of a snow tire, or more properly an
"mud and snow" tire (read the sidewall). These big
grippers are made to dig into a loose material and
gain traction.


The tread pattern is only a part of the picture. The main improvement
of real snowtires like the Blizzak and the Hakkepallita is the material
science behind the rubber compounds. The material just flat out grips
better than normal tire rubber. The tradeoff of course is that the
compound wears out faster, especially at higher temps.

It's just like with skis - the breakthrough is not so much the sidecut
as the torsional rigidity and vibrational damping made possible by
advances in materials.

The only way these are going to perform
on ice is to have studs.


Um.... recent tests have shown the new formulations grip *better* than
studs. Studs tend to tear right through the ice so their grippiness is
limited by the strength of the ice. At near freezing temps, the ice has
little structural integrity, so the studs just rip right through it.
Grippy rubber formulations spread the load over a larger surface area
and hold better than the point-load of a stud.


In my "real world" I'm happy that the studs break
through. In the past it has been noted that narrow
snow tires are sometimes more effective than wide
ones because the wide ones "float" and the narrow
ones break through.

IMO a test which finds a certain solution works
better on a block of ice better than another may
or may not have real world application. The studs
ripping through ice might just be what you want.
There is better traction in the material under the
ice.

So I've already agreed that Blizzaks and apparently
Haks are as good a solution as studs. But...
already having two good studded snows for my wife's
car, I bought two more rather than spring for four
Blizzaks. It seemed a no-brainer to me. For others
following this thread, you should always have the
same kind of tires at both ends of the car. If you
have AWD, you need also to have tires of the same
brand, size, tread pattern and age at both ends of
the car.


Braking.
There isn't a tire in the world that will improve your
braking on ice except a studded tire.



Not true. See above. Studs are an old technology that worked pretty
well but has now been superseded.

Really, the bottom line for driving on slippery surfaces is that a
higher coeffficient of friction will do much more for you than doubling
the number of driving wheels (while keeping the number of braking wheels
the same). I've never understood how anyone could be so penny-wise as
to spend $35K on a 4WD SUV and not pony up another $500 for real snow
tires.

//Walt






  #25  
Old November 28th 10, 03:59 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
gr[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/2010 12:29 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least
2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the
right hand side of the road, especially going down.


I did that once to save wear on the chains once when the wheel track area of the
road was bare. Some idiot had gone off the road earlier. He was gone, but his
tracks took me right into the ditch.



Several auto enhancement s have been discussed here, it seems that
sometimes the actual function and names were criss crossed.

ASB- anti-lock braking

Traction Control- applied brake to spinning wheel if other wheels are
going slower

Stability Control- applies individual brakes as needed to counteract skids


A word on snow tires; one type to consider is the real snow tire, made
with a special all season rubber compound so that the tire can be used
year round. Nokian WRG2. I have a set which seem to work ok. Just had
them a year so I am waiting to see if I get reasonable life out of them;
early looks at tread seem that it might be wearing kind of fast.

These Nokians use a canola-silica compound for improved ice traction,and
are considered "all-weather" as compared to "all-season". They are rated
as snow tires and marked as such.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...2-99026508.htm

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...pletred-25418/


In the US they do not seem to (usually) sell them as snow tire, but in
Europe they do.

For reference; I previously used Michelen Hydroedge for summer tires and
Dunlop Graspix for Winter tires.

One last note; for my WRG2 tires I found I had to increase the tire
pressure a bit (like 5 lbs) or they felt slightly bumpy or out of balance.

  #26  
Old November 28th 10, 03:59 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/2010 10:40 AM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 28, 1:46 am, wrote:

Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only
engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right


The problem I have with ABS is that it doesn't allow me to drive like
I learned. And it's hard to unlearn. When I first got it I was still
doing the "brake pump" thing. I heard that the procedure with ABS is
to stomp the peddle and the brakes do the pumping. Is there another
method?


No, Britt is probably driving the way
you and I drive. Very light foot on the
brake, pumping if skid is noticed, etc.

The only time ABS has engaged in my truck
is when I've stomped on pavement or gravel
hard enough to skid. I don't like it
particularly on slippery going either but
at least it's not detrimental as
traction control is.
  #27  
Old November 28th 10, 05:02 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
twobuddha twobuddha is offline
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Posts: 8,058
Default Snow tires?

On Nov 27, 9:29*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
VtSkier wrote:
uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least
2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the
right hand side of the road, especially going down.


I did that once to save wear on the chains once when the wheel track area of the
road was bare. Some idiot had gone off the road earlier. He was gone, but his
tracks took me right into the ditch.


Who is the idiot? Looks to me like you follow the freaks of rsa right
into the scummy ditch on a regular basis.
  #28  
Old November 28th 10, 05:15 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
lal_truckee
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Posts: 1,348
Default Snow tires?

On 11/28/10 7:55 AM, VtSkier wrote:

You might also note that the signs they post
in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that
you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does
not specify snow tires.


The signs don't; the pertinent law does. It reads "4WD with snow tires"
or chains. Law also specifies 4WD must carry chains in possession to
proceed. M&S rating is what they mean by "snow tires" BTW - almost all
modern tires are so rated.

It also specifies the 4WD must be engaged - lots of lawyerly flatlanders
drive their shiny spanking SUVs to the resorts but never learned how to
engage their part time 4WD. (part time 4WD are admittedly rare these AWD
days.) Then there's the folks who buy a humongous SUV with the 2WD
option - they pass by the DMV chain control guys pretending to be 4WD
and end up littered all over the shoulder, banged up.

  #29  
Old November 28th 10, 05:22 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
BrritSki
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Posts: 575
Default Snow tires?

On 28/11/2010 16:26, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/28/2010 05:03 AM, BrritSki wrote:
On 28/11/2010 10:31, Richard Henry wrote:
On Nov 28, 12:46 am, wrote:
On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote:

On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote:

Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the
hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going....

Wow, what a great thread, very interesting.
...

Not counting the times when I first got each car and deliberately
triggered it so I knew what it felt like - if you don't, it can come as
a big surprise just at a time when you don't need more distractions !


The ABS in my truck sounds like you've driven over
a "rumble strip" in the road.


Exactly - if you've never heard/experienced it is very disconcerting to
hear it for the first time and downright scary in an emergency situation.

My truck also doesn't
have traction control, but a car my wife had once
did. That's where my opinion of it comes from.


Never had traction control afaik, just have a HOLD setting on the Scooby
for traction on ice/snow, but that's different I think.

  #30  
Old November 28th 10, 05:24 PM posted to rec.skiing.alpine
Richard Henry
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Posts: 3,756
Default Snow tires?

On Nov 28, 7:55*am, VtSkier wrote:

You might also note that the signs they post
in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that
you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does
not specify snow tires.


They can't put all those words on the sign. The longer notice given
on the Cal Trans website, phone and radio reports always says "four-
wheel drive with snow tires on all four wheels". When I had my Jeep,
the law and the CHP gatekeepers always required that we carry chains
anyway. A friend got a ticket for not having them once on his 4WD
pickup-camper, and they made him turn around and go down as well.
 




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