If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! First of all, I wasn't using skating skis. For the record, I can ski skate, and fairly well, with a pair of thin telemark skis and telemark boots. The metal edges glide fairly well. Secondly, other than breaking through the snow, the skis I was using were pretty good. I wasn't the only one on light equipment out there. If we wouldn't have taken the last segment of the trail, at the end of the day I would have considered my equipment selection to be OK. A shovel on the other hand might be wise for reasons other than avalanches. Maybe using it to knock some sense into yourself? ;- ) ha ha... Sorry to be so hard on you-- consider it tough love. Hah! Imagine the welcome this would get on rec.skiing.backcountry, talking about using skate skis and a light shell on a February backcountry day excursion in Canada. Well said, Chris. -- GG First of all, this wasn't true back country. This was ski touring as in a ski set trail. True back country skiing is about skins, trecking off trails, etc. Secondly, have you ever skied in Canada in February ? It was a very warm day the day we were out. Above freezing. The reason it was cold in the valley was due to a cold air pocket caused by: shadows from the mountains, it was beneath a glacier and no wind. Later in the day I was warm and others were overheating. Was it really such a stupid decision ? Compared to the people in sweat pants I was in excellent shape, clothing wise. They were wet, I was dry. People can sit back and criticize me and my story as much as they want. I relayed the events of the day and emphasized mistakes we'd made for the purpose of learning, both for me and for others. I made them look black and white, but during the day they weren't so obvious. The BIG mistake of the day was routefinding and not paying enough attention to it. The other mistakes were more tradeoffs than mistakes and that is kind of the point of the story: there is a fine line between tradeoffs and mistakes when skiing in the wilderness AND the conditions can change VERY quickly, making what was once a trade off, a BIG mistake. |
Ads |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
--0-319950034-1077723477=:68216
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Kim- Sorry to have criticized you based on mis-perceptions-- it's the biggest problem with this kind of a discussion in an email forum. This would probably be best done sitting around a table with a glass of wine. I think we have all made mistakes in judgement from time to time that have quickly gotten us right up to the edge, if not slightly over it, and hopefully we all learn from it. There's a saying: experience leads to good judgement, but it's bad judgement that leads to experience. Though I don't want to beat this (or you) to death any more, I still think that the number one lesson to take to heart is to 1) constantly be evaluating the environment around you, and how you're feeling in (and about) it; and 2) use those perceptions to evaluate if you're being sensible, and exercise the option to bail out or back off if you're feeling uncomfortable. But maybe you feel that everything was just fine except for the falling in the stream part, and we're all over-reacting to the rest of the tour (which is understandable given the amount of text you devoted to building up the story of falling in the stream)-- in which case, just stay out of the water from now on! ;- ) cheers and enjoy the rest of the winter. I haven't skiied in Canada in February, but I am going for my first hut-to-hut trip (the Wapta traverse) at the end of March. I'm looking forward to it, and I plan to stay out of the creek beds! Chris C. SLC, UT Me wrote: Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! First of all, I wasn't using skating skis. For the record, I can ski skate, and fairly well, with a pair of thin telemark skis and telemark boots. The metal edges glide fairly well. Secondly, other than breaking through the snow, the skis I was using were pretty good. I wasn't the only one on light equipment out there. If we wouldn't have taken the last segment of the trail, at the end of the day I would have considered my equipment selection to be OK. A shovel on the other hand might be wise for reasons other than avalanches. Maybe using it to knock some sense into yourself? ;- ) ha ha... Sorry to be so hard on you-- consider it tough love. Hah! Imagine the welcome this would get on rec.skiing.backcountry, talking about using skate skis and a light shell on a February backcountry day excursion in Canada. Well said, Chris. -- GG First of all, this wasn't true back country. This was ski touring as in a ski set trail. True back country skiing is about skins, trecking off trails, etc. Secondly, have you ever skied in Canada in February ? It was a very warm day the day we were out. Above freezing. The reason it was cold in the valley was due to a cold air pocket caused by: shadows from the mountains, it was beneath a glacier and no wind. Later in the day I was warm and others were overheating. Was it really such a stupid decision ? Compared to the people in sweat pants I was in excellent shape, clothing wise. They were wet, I was dry. People can sit back and criticize me and my story as much as they want. I relayed the events of the day and emphasized mistakes we'd made for the purpose of learning, both for me and for others. I made them look black and white, but during the day they weren't so obvious. The BIG mistake of the day was routefinding and not paying enough attention to it. The other mistakes were more tradeoffs than mistakes and that is kind of the point of the story: there is a fine line between tradeoffs and mistakes when skiing in the wilderness AND the conditions can change VERY quickly, making what was once a trade off, a BIG mistake. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --0-319950034-1077723477=:68216 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVHi Kim-/DIV DIVSorry to have criticized you based on mis-perceptions-- it's the biggest problem with this kind of a discussion in an email forum. This would probably be best done sitting around a table with a glass of wine./DIV DIV /DIV DIVI think we have all made mistakes in judgement from time to time that have quickly gotten us right up to the edge, if not slightly over it, and hopefully we all learn from it. There's a saying: experience leads to good judgement, but it's bad judgement that leads to experience./DIV DIV /DIV DIVThough I don't want to beat this (or you) to death any more, I still think that the number one lesson to take to heart is to 1) constantly be evaluating the environment around you, and how you're feeling in (and about) it; and 2) use those perceptions to evaluate if you're being sensible, and exercise the option to bail out or back off if you're feeling uncomfortable./DIV DIV /DIV DIVBut maybe you feel that everything was just fine except for the falling in the stream part, and we're all over-reacting to the rest of the tour (which is understandable given the amount of text you devoted to building up the story of falling in the stream)-- in which case, just stay out of the water from now on! ;- )/DIV DIV /DIV DIVcheers and enjoy the rest of the winter. I haven't skiied in Canada in February, but I am going for my first hut-to-hut trip (the Wapta traverse) at the end of March. I'm looking forward to it, and I plan to stay out of the creek beds!/DIV DIV /DIV DIVChris C./DIV DIVSLC, UTBRBRBIMe >/I/B wrote:/DIV BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"BRBR> Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUSTBR> the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the SierraBR> crust cruising maniac)!BRBRFirst of all, I wasn't using skating skis. For the record, I can skiBRskate, and fairly well, with a pair of thin telemark skis and telemarkBRboots. The metal edges glide fairly well.BRBRSecondly, other than breaking through the snow, the skis I was using wereBRpretty good. I wasn't the only one on light equipment out there. If weBRwouldn't have taken the last segment of the trail, at the end of the day IBRwould have considered my equipment selection to be OK.BRBR>> A shovel on the other hand might be wise for reasons other thanBR>> avalanches.BR>> BR>> Maybe using it to knock some sense into yourself? ;- )BRBRha ha...BRBRBR>> Sorry to be so hard on you-- consider it tough love.BR> BR> Hah! Imagine the welcome this would get on rec.skiing.backcountry,BR> talking about using skate skis and a light shell on a FebruaryBR> backcountry day excursion in Canada. Well said, Chris. -- GGBR> BR> BRBRFirst of all, this wasn't true back country. This was ski touring as in aBRski set trail. True back country skiing is about skins, trecking offBRtrails, etc.BRBRSecondly, have you ever skied in Canada in February ? It was a very warmBRday the day we were out. Above freezing. The reason it was cold in theBRvalley was due to a cold air pocket caused by: shadows from the mountains,BRit was beneath a glacier and no wind. Later in the day I was warm andBRothers were overheating. Was it really such a stupid decision ? ComparedBRto the people in sweat pants I was in excellent shape, clothing wise. TheyBRwere wet, I was dry.BRBRPeople c! an sit back and criticize me and my story as much as they want. IBRrelayed the events of the day and emphasized mistakes we'd made for theBRpurpose of learning, both for me and for others. I made them look blackBRand white, but during the day they weren't so obvious.BRBRThe BIG mistake of the day was routefinding and not paying enoughBRattention to it. The other mistakes were more tradeoffs than mistakes andBRthat is kind of the point of the story: there is a fine line betweenBRtradeoffs and mistakes when skiing in the wilderness AND the conditionsBRcan change VERY quickly, making what was once a trade off, a BIG mistake. BRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTE phr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a --0-319950034-1077723477=:68216-- |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
I skimmed the initial post. My take is that there are a few issues: 1) Equipment choice, i.e., narrow race skis vs. wider touring skis. I see this as more a performance issue than a safety issue. Skis that submarine are simply harder to ski, but I don't see that as having been directly related to the real incident. On an out-and-back, uphill tour, poor equipment usually means that you just don't get as far before you turn around and go home. 2) Clothing choice. Yeah, he was under-dressed and should have brought more clothes. But, this certainly didn't cause the main problem of the day. I didn't get the feeling that they were really that far out there (i.e., if you ski uphill for a couple hours and have lunch, chances are you can ski out relatively quickly if you start to get cold). But, having extra clothing is definitely a good idea and does prepare you for unexpected circumstances. 3) Route choice. By taking an alternate, less-skied route out, they were definitely taking chances. This is the only conscious decision that was definitively linked to the incident. This could have lead to a much longer day (if the route proved particularly difficult), especially given their gear. 4) Falling in a creek. Without having a clear image of the accident site, this seems like a somewhat freak accident. They weren't the first ones over the terrain, normally following someone else's tracks should be pretty safe. He's just lucky he didn't end up in the creek, very lucky someone was there to help pull him out. He did some things very well, i.e., remained stable and out of the water until there was someone to help. All in all, it's pretty hard to say that having insufficient clothing or light equipment was why he ended up in the creek. He was just in the wrong place and the wrong time. Brian |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
I misread. I don't find that model listed anywhere, but presumably that
44 is 44cm, which seems way too narrow for the terrain and distance you were planning to take and, even more important, the level of ability you convey in your story. As I read your replies in this thread, what I keep hearing are the "10 excuses." Routefinding was not your main problem. Learning to think through the trip in advance was. Take your medicine and move on. Gene Me wrote: The skis were NOT skating skis. There were 210 cm Rossignol Silver 44 skis. They aren't an all out racing ski either. Kim |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
Chris Cline wrote:
--0-698804422-1077686971=:61134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! thanks for the compliment! C I was thinking of Mark as I wrote that Even if they weren't skate skis, it wasn't April or May, with lots of days above and nights below freezing that creates the wonderful crust that Mark taunts us with, while we slog on our bikes against a stiff head wind and wet snow. Isn't the sign of an experienced skier someone who knows the difference between those conditions and a couple of days above freezing several degrees lattitude farther north in February? GG |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
Comments below.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:42:30 -0800, Chris Cline wrote: --0-319950034-1077723477=:68216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Kim- Sorry to have criticized you based on mis-perceptions-- it's the biggest problem with this kind of a discussion in an email forum. This would probably be best done sitting around a table with a glass of wine. No foul, no harm. I think we have all made mistakes in judgement from time to time that have quickly gotten us right up to the edge, if not slightly over it, and hopefully we all learn from it. There's a saying: experience leads to good judgement, but it's bad judgement that leads to experience. Agreed. Though I don't want to beat this (or you) to death any more, I still think that the number one lesson to take to heart is to 1) constantly be evaluating the environment around you, and how you're feeling in (and about) it; and 2) use those perceptions to evaluate if you're being sensible, and exercise the option to bail out or back off if you're feeling uncomfortable. I agree. But maybe you feel that everything was just fine except for the falling in the stream part, and we're all over-reacting to the rest of the tour (which is understandable given the amount of text you devoted to building up the story of falling in the stream)-- in which case, just stay out of the water from now on! ;- ) I've kind of got mixed feelings about the day. We weren't in over our heads until the creek incident. We were on the line with clothing, skis, etc, but like one poster put it, you just ski slower. I guess one just has to be really careful and stay away from situations where you are close to the edge, especially in multiple areas. cheers and enjoy the rest of the winter. I haven't skiied in Canada in February, but I am going for my first hut-to-hut trip (the Wapta traverse) at the end of March. I'm looking forward to it, and I plan to stay out of the creek beds! I wish you a safe and happy trip. The Wapta traverse is a big undertaking. I've never done, but I've heard about it from those that have. Ski safe. Watch for avalanches, which can happen with high frequency during a warm spring day. Chris C. SLC, UT Me wrote: Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! First of all, I wasn't using skating skis. For the record, I can ski skate, and fairly well, with a pair of thin telemark skis and telemark boots. The metal edges glide fairly well. Secondly, other than breaking through the snow, the skis I was using were pretty good. I wasn't the only one on light equipment out there. If we wouldn't have taken the last segment of the trail, at the end of the day I would have considered my equipment selection to be OK. A shovel on the other hand might be wise for reasons other than avalanches. Maybe using it to knock some sense into yourself? ;- ) ha ha... Sorry to be so hard on you-- consider it tough love. Hah! Imagine the welcome this would get on rec.skiing.backcountry, talking about using skate skis and a light shell on a February backcountry day excursion in Canada. Well said, Chris. -- GG First of all, this wasn't true back country. This was ski touring as in a ski set trail. True back country skiing is about skins, trecking off trails, etc. Secondly, have you ever skied in Canada in February ? It was a very warm day the day we were out. Above freezing. The reason it was cold in the valley was due to a cold air pocket caused by: shadows from the mountains, it was beneath a glacier and no wind. Later in the day I was warm and others were overheating. Was it really such a stupid decision ? Compared to the people in sweat pants I was in excellent shape, clothing wise. They were wet, I was dry. People can sit back and criticize me and my story as much as they want. I relayed the events of the day and emphasized mistakes we'd made for the purpose of learning, both for me and for others. I made them look black and white, but during the day they weren't so obvious. The BIG mistake of the day was routefinding and not paying enough attention to it. The other mistakes were more tradeoffs than mistakes and that is kind of the point of the story: there is a fine line between tradeoffs and mistakes when skiing in the wilderness AND the conditions can change VERY quickly, making what was once a trade off, a BIG mistake. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --0-319950034-1077723477=:68216 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVHi Kim-/DIV DIVSorry to have criticized you based on mis-perceptions-- it's the biggest problem with this kind of a discussion in an email forum. This would probably be best done sitting around a table with a glass of wine./DIV DIV /DIV DIVI think we have all made mistakes in judgement from time to time that have quickly gotten us right up to the edge, if not slightly over it, and hopefully we all learn from it. There's a saying: experience leads to good judgement, but it's bad judgement that leads to experience./DIV DIV /DIV DIVThough I don't want to beat this (or you) to death any more, I still think that the number one lesson to take to heart is to 1) constantly be evaluating the environment around you, and how you're feeling in (and about) it; and 2) use those perceptions to evaluate if you're being sensible, and exercise the option to bail out or back off if you're feeling uncomfortable./DIV DIV /DIV DIVBut maybe you feel that everything was just fine except for the falling in the stream part, and we're all over-reacting to the rest of the tour (which is understandable given the amount of text you devoted to building up the story of falling in the stream)-- in which case, just stay out of the water from now on! ;- )/DIV DIV /DIV DIVcheers and enjoy the rest of the winter. I haven't skiied in Canada in February, but I am going for my first hut-to-hut trip (the Wapta traverse) at the end of March. I'm looking forward to it, and I plan to stay out of the creek beds!/DIV DIV /DIV DIVChris C./DIV DIVSLC, UTBRBRBIMe >/I/B wrote:/DIV BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"BRBR> Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUSTBR> the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the SierraBR> crust cruising maniac)!BRBRFirst of all, I wasn't using skating skis. For the record, I can skiBRskate, and fairly well, with a pair of thin telemark skis and telemarkBRboots. The metal edges glide fairly well.BRBRSecondly, other than breaking through the snow, the skis I was using wereBRpretty good. I wasn't the only one on light equipment out there. If weBRwouldn't have taken the last segment of the trail, at the end of the day IBRwould have considered my equipment selection to be OK.BRBR>> A shovel on the other hand might be wise for reasons other thanBR>> avalanches.BR>> BR>> Maybe using it to knock some sense into yourself? ;- )BRBRha ha...BRBRBR>> Sorry to be so hard on you-- consider it tough love.BR> BR> Hah! Imagine the welcome this would get on rec.skiing.backcountry,BR> talking about using skate skis and a light shell on a FebruaryBR> backcountry day excursion in Canada. Well said, Chris. -- GGBR> BR> BRBRFirst of all, this wasn't true back country. This was ski touring as in aBRski set trail. True back country skiing is about skins, trecking offBRtrails, etc.BRBRSecondly, have you ever skied in Canada in February ? It was a very warmBRday the day we were out. Above freezing. The reason it was cold in theBRvalley was due to a cold air pocket caused by: shadows from the mountains,BRit was beneath a glacier and no wind. Later in the day I was warm andBRothers were overheating. Was it really such a stupid decision ? ComparedBRto the people in sweat pants I was in excellent shape, clothing wise. TheyBRwere wet, I was dry.BRBRPeople c! an sit back and criticize me and my story as much as they want. IBRrelayed the events of the day and emphasized mistakes we'd made for theBRpurpose of learning, both for me and for others. I made them look blackBRand white, but during the day they weren't so obvious.BRBRThe BIG mistake of the day was routefinding and not paying enoughBRattention to it. The other mistakes were more tradeoffs than mistakes andBRthat is kind of the point of the story: there is a fine line betweenBRtradeoffs and mistakes when skiing in the wilderness AND the conditionsBRcan change VERY quickly, making what was once a trade off, a BIG mistake. BRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTE phr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a --0-319950034-1077723477=:68216-- |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
Oops, that should read 44 mm!
Gene Goldenfeld wrote: I misread. I don't find that model listed anywhere, but presumably that 44 is 44cm, which seems way too narrow for the terrain and distance you were planning to take and, even more important, the level of ability you convey in your story. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
My point is that when you start making decisions based on inadequate
clothing here, inadequate equipment there, route conditions somewhere else, lack of a map in the next spot and so forth, it all adds up, leading to being in a position later in the day they probably wouldn't have been with appropriate preparation. Certainly the best preparation can't cover all possibilities, yet I do know that simply focusing on the parts allows one to deny or minimize their interconnectedness, and avoid seeing the overall picture. Gene wrote: All in all, it's pretty hard to say that having insufficient clothing or light equipment was why he ended up in the creek. He was just in the wrong place and the wrong time. Brian |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
--0-761300004-1077736529=:75559
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Chris Cline wrote: --0-698804422-1077686971=:61134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! thanks for the compliment! C I was thinking of Mark as I wrote that Even if they weren't skate skis, it wasn't April or May, with lots of days above and nights below freezing that creates the wonderful crust that Mark taunts us with, while we slog on our bikes against a stiff head wind and wet snow. Isn't the sign of an experienced skier someone who knows the difference between those conditions and a couple of days above freezing several degrees lattitude farther north in February? GG I won't raise to the bait on that one. I've skiied crappy snow on over-matched skis plenty of times myself (and as Brian pointed out, that wasn't the fundamental problem). C --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --0-761300004-1077736529=:75559 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVBRBRBIGene Goldenfeld >/I/B wrote: BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid" PChris Cline wrote:BR> BR> --0-698804422-1077686971=:61134BR> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiBR> BR> Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)!BR> BR> thanks for the compliment!BR> CBRBRI was thinking of Mark as I wrote that Even if they weren't skateBRskis, it wasn't April or May, with lots of days above and nights belowBRfreezing that creates the wonderful crust that Mark taunts us with,BRwhile we slog on our bikes against a stiff head wind and wet snow. BRIsn't the sign of an experienced skier someone who knows the differenceBRbetween those conditions and a couple of days above freezing severalBRdegrees lattitude farther north in February? BRBRGGBRBRBRBRI won't raise to the bait on that one. I've skiied crappy snow on over-matched skis plenty of times myself (and! as Brian pointed out, that wasn't the fundamental problem)./P PC/P/BLOCKQUOTE/DIVphr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a --0-761300004-1077736529=:75559-- |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Near fatal ski incident
Yo,
Since my name's been bandied about (I wonder what it really feels like to be bandied?), I guess I'll just say that I'm honored and humbled to be put in "maniacal" terms. Thank you. What we do out here is definitely risk-taking, but it is calculated and planned and thought-out. That said, we are always just an accident or injury away from serious trouble on some of our backcountry skate expeditions, and we accept those risks, just like a climber is always one bad placement or rotten piece of rock away from a serious fall, or a cyclist one crazy squirrel, dog, or auto away from serious accident. A person's level of risk management is always, I believe, a personal decision, unless it involves other people who didn't "buy into" the original risk (family, search and rescue personnel, etc.). I try not to judge. Laugh at quietly, yes -- judge, no. Mark (looking outside at the new Sierra snow measured in feet, and realizing that spring corn isn't coming very soon). (Chris Cline) wrote in message Gene Goldenfeld wrote: Chris Cline wrote: Yeah, but what those rec.bc folks don't know is that skate skis are JUST the tool on thos spring crust days. Just ask Mark Nadell (the Sierra crust cruising maniac)! thanks for the compliment! C I was thinking of Mark as I wrote that Even if they weren't skate skis, it wasn't April or May, with lots of days above and nights below freezing that creates the wonderful crust that Mark taunts us with, while we slog on our bikes against a stiff head wind and wet snow. Isn't the sign of an experienced skier someone who knows the difference between those conditions and a couple of days above freezing several degrees lattitude farther north in February? GG |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|