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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
--0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Everyone, Quick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system. Is hand brushing that much better? Thanks.............Jim "If a man does his best, what else is there?" - General George S. Patton (1885-1945) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes --0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVEveryone,/DIV DIV /DIV DIVQuick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system./DIV DIV /DIV DIVIs hand brushing that much better?/DIV DIV /DIV DIVThanks.............Jim/DIVBRBRDTSTRONGFONT color=#800000"If a man does his best, what else is there?"/FONT/STRONG BR- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)/DTphr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br Yahoo! Hotjobs: a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/evt=21482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus"Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes/a --0-1816968658-1074195943=:40998-- |
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#2
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
I believe the top waxers at both Swix and Toko prefer hand brushing.
Me, a busy guy with a day job, I always rotobrush. Sorry, I just don't have time to hand brush. I use a low RPM cordless drill and I love the way the skis look. I have a Red Creek dual brush. Horsehair to dig out the wax, nylon to put on the shine. Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team --- Cloutier Jim wrote: Everyone, Quick question.......To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system. Is hand brushing that much better? Thanks.............Jim "If a man does his best, what else is there?" - General George S. Patton (1885-1945) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#3
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com... I believe the top waxers at both Swix and Toko prefer hand brushing. Me, a busy guy with a day job, I always rotobrush. Sorry, I just don't have time to hand brush. I use a low RPM cordless drill and I love the way the skis look. I have a Red Creek dual brush. Horsehair to dig out the wax, nylon to put on the shine. If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse hair then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy work with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into the smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the nylon, then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards? Grissy |
#4
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse hair then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy work with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into the smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the nylon, then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards? You can alternate them in any order. But finish with the nylon to put on the shine. You can also get a soft nylon brush to really polish - do that by hand at the end. Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#5
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
"Rob Bradlee" wrote in message
o.com... If you were hand brushing, would you do it in the same order - horse hair then nylon? I've always done it the opposite - nylon to do the heavy work with thicker bristles, followed by the finer horsehair to get into the smaller spaces. But the ski always looks nice and shiny after the nylon, then the horsehair dulls it out. Am I backwards? You can alternate them in any order. But finish with the nylon to put on the shine. You can also get a soft nylon brush to really polish - do that by hand at the end. Rob Bradlee Hey thanks for the reply Rob. I did this last night and the skis look excellent, nice and shiny and no apparent surface wax. Rob or others out there - If you don't mind my picking your mind a little more (I really appreciate the expert tech comments from you and others). 1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each brush in both cases. 2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough. Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass. I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or 10. 3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean. I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?) 4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day, is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness (e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.). By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan and think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive conditions. Thanks MUCH Grissy |
#6
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each brush in both cases. Not sure. It sure LOOKS good. 2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough. Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass. I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or 10. Yes, ambition level is the key. Usually you can see if there is still wax in the structure and if you are still pulling any out. Amount of brushing really varies with hardness of the wax. 3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean. I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?) Pour hot water on them? 4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day, is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness (e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.). No Moly at all if it is super cold - just layers of blue. LF Moly in most conditions as a first layer. HF Moly when really wet as underlayer and also mixed with yellow if snow is really dirty for final layer. By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan and think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive conditions. Thanks MUCH No prob! Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#7
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
Thanks for all the info and advice. Good skiing to you
Grissy "Rob Bradlee" wrote in message o.com... 1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each brush in both cases. Not sure. It sure LOOKS good. 2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough. Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass. I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or 10. Yes, ambition level is the key. Usually you can see if there is still wax in the structure and if you are still pulling any out. Amount of brushing really varies with hardness of the wax. 3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean. I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?) Pour hot water on them? 4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day, is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness (e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.). No Moly at all if it is super cold - just layers of blue. LF Moly in most conditions as a first layer. HF Moly when really wet as underlayer and also mixed with yellow if snow is really dirty for final layer. By the way, per the other discussion on Cold Powder - I'm a big fan and think it is an excellent product in super cold and abrasive conditions. Thanks MUCH No prob! Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#8
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To Roto-Brush system or not Roto-Brush system
Griss wrote: Rob or others out there - If you don't mind my picking your mind a little more (I really appreciate the expert tech comments from you and others). 1- is the shininess actually a factor in performance of the ski? Is horsehair followed by nylon (shiny) actually faster than nylon followed by horsehair (duller). Assuming same amount of scraping, brushing with each brush in both cases. Depends what you are trying to achieve. Depends on the brushes you are using (bristle diameter and stiffness). A finer bristle will get into the structure of the base to remove more wax thus exposing the structure more. This can be good when you are looking to break the suction effect. A coarse bristle will give you more of the polished look. Less of the underlying micro structure of the base exposed. This can be good when conditions are dry with hard, well-structured snow because the crystals will have a harder time grabbing the base (thus slowing you down). A stiff, coarse brush will remove the bulk of excess wax faster than a fine, soft brush. But the fine brush will get the last of the excess off better. If you are going to be layering the wax then you want to expose as much of the structure so the next layer can there. 2 - I've always been curious as to how much to brush. Yes, I know "you can't brush too much". One guy told me to brush until shiny (thus the concern above because finishing with the horsehair (which someone else told me to do) actually dulled the shininess). With a nylon brush, that really doesn't take much brushing and I've always figured it wasn't enough. Someone else told me to brush until I don't raise any wax. That's tougher to determine because any residue in the brush (from the previous pass, for example), leaves some residue that isn't necessarily from the current pass. I've settled into a routine where I just brush a certain number of times and call it a day - number depending on ambition level at the time - say 5 or 10. The brush until you don't get much wax dust off is best. If you're using roto-brushes the effort to do this is low. It's easier to have the roto-brush remove it then use the snow on the trail to brush the excess off. It just slows the skis and makes you use up energy. If you're using a roto-brush, the majority of the time the 5 passes should be enough. You can use a hand brush to test a bit to see what is still there. Then you can decide to roto more or not. 3 - what's the best way to clean your brushes. I've always just vacuumed them with the shop vac. But this doesn't seem to get them perfectly clean. I'd read to put them in the dishwasher - tried that and the wooden brushes warped. (Might I suggest a market for plastic handled brushes?) Yeah, there is the dishwasher method. Usually it should be top-rack only and on a short cycle. Don't let the dishwasher go through it's dry cycle. Let them dry out on the counter. You can use the very hot water in the sink method (bristle side down and swish them around every couple of minutes). You can use the freeze method: get the brush as cold as you can and then scrape the bristle tips with a scraper to "pop" the wax off. Red Creek makes plastic handled hand brushes. But they are difficult to get in North America (probably because they cost more). BTW Red Creek recommends that their roto-brushes be cleaned as follows: Nylon brushes (grey, white, black): 80C water with mild soap or no soap (no chlorine additives). So this means top rack dishwasher is okay. Natural brushes (horsehair/brown hard & soft/fine, combi, cleaning): 40C water (dish sink water). Mild soap or no soap, no chlorine, etc. Don't wash the roto-cork. Since Red Creek supplies roto brushes to Toko, the same will apply to those roto brushes. No info on what other brands recommend. Don't use wax remover or other solvents. 4 - Does the Toko LF (or HF) moly serve approximately the same purpose as the "all in one" moly (i.e. non-flouro, cheap) - Assuming very cold and dry conditions, where a LF or HF flouro wax might not outperform a regular straight hydrocarbon wax. If one were to use a moly under wax of the day, is there any reason to use the LF (or HF) rather than the non-flouro version of the moly. Are all these versions of Toko moly about the same hardness (e.g. require similar iron temp, waxing technique, etc.). Rob answered this; Toko question and he's the Toko guy. Rodney |
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