Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route" has been done with
nordic touring skis.

Interesting claim. Never heard it before. I assume you mean some route
between like Argentiere and Zermatt. How about some details and support?

I have no personal experience of this, which is why I put the name in
quotes, but I've been told so by people I trust.

OTOH I have my own experience which is that it is perfectly possible to
climb up & down _very_ steep mountains in competition xc gear, even if
the snow varies between glazed, packed drifts and sudden powder pockets.

Yes, you have to either go _very_ slow, which would exhaust you, or just
be a good skier willing to take a few falls.

For the rest, let's just agree to disagree, OK?

Terje

--
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"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
... with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges and
NNN BC bindings can do it all.

What's this heavy NNN BC stuff, Terje?
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic on
your skating skis?

Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I've skied about 2000 km of hilly, trackless backcountry tours, going
from the north to the south end of Telemark county in four days around
the first weekend in March.

Some of this has been totally glazed ice, some has been bottomless
powder, mostly it has been somewhere in between.

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard. :-)

Terje

--
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"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Am Montag, den 06.11.2006, 20:09 +0100 schrieb Terje Mathisen:

OTOH, with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges
and NNN BC bindings can do it all. Afaik all the fastest traverses of
the "Haute Route" (sp?) has been done with nordic touring skis.

No, no. This year at the Patrouille des glaciers they made a new record
(for the Zermatt - Verbier) 6 hrs and something. And they did it with
the ultralite Dynastar, Dynafit bindings ...

But, sincerely, upward they're running like hell and downward they don't
ski - at least not in a way we would consider skiing. They just come
down :-)

Anyway, their equipment isn't what you would consider seriously for a
normal randonnee use.

Personally i've both: small skis with 2/3 metall edges and leather boots
and large (90 at center) but leightweight touring skis with plastic
boots - both with 3-pin :-)

Cheers,

Uli

Terje Mathisen wrote
let's just agree to disagree, OK?

Since I don't know what it is we disagree about . . . No it's not OK.

I think it's just fine if lots of skiers like to use serious telemark
equipment in Norway and make telemark turns. And it's just fine with me if
Norwegians bring their telemark equipment (and turns) with them when they
visit the Alps.

Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route" has been done with
nordic touring skis.

I believe that. I've toured from Argentiere to Champex, then over the
Plateau du Couloir to Zermatt (the "classic" haute route) twice -- both
times on Asolo Snowfield leather boots and Rottefella 3-pin bindings. I
think that set-up should qualify as "nordic touring skis".

I can believe that some expert skier/mountaineers did that same route on NNN
BC bindings -- on a day with favorable snow conditions. And believe that
they set some sort of "record" by using such light gear. Actually I suspect
I could do the classic haute route on SNS Profil bindings -- if the snow +
weather conditions were favorable. And one of my German partners could do it
with a long wooden toothpick glued to the bottom of each of his hiking
boots.

But the fact that the classic haute route _can_ be done on equipment like
that (or even if NNN BC is even optimal for it for a few special skiers on a
special day) does not mean that NNN BC or leather boots with 3-pin bindings
are a smart choice to purchase for a local skier who's going to want to get
out there on terrain like that and have _fun_ in it for lots of days
throughout the winter and spring, including days when the snow isn't so
good.

I was being stupid when I did it in leather boots. Back then I had never
tried alpine touring gear. Now that I've got my own set of Alpine Touring
equipment, I know how superior it is for being safe and having _fun_ in lots
of different kinds of snow. There's no way I'm going back to leather boots
now. And the saving in weight of NNN BC versus Scarpa F1 + Dynafit is so
small, there's no way it can make sense to recommend NNN BC as a "suitable"
set-up for the Alps around Lausanne (except for somebody trying to set some
new record.)

OTOH I have my own experience which is that it is perfectly possible to
climb up & down _very_ steep mountains in competition xc gear, even if the
snow varies between glazed, packed drifts and sudden powder pockets.

This raises a good point: Most skiers do not actually _ski_ the entire haute
route. The steepest sections are usually done with skis strapped to the
pack: e.g. descending the north side of Col du Chardonnet, climbing from
Valsorey to Plateau du Couloir, climbing west side of Col du Mont Brule.
(Not to mention the bus or taxi ride from Champex to Bourg St Pierre.)

So the key to surviving the classic haute route on light gear is: What can
you handle with your skis off. Which reminds me that the key limitation I
felt in using my SNS bindings and track Combi boots for more serious tours
was my difficulty in finding _crampons_ that fit well on my track Combi
boots.

Ken

Terje Mathisen wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic
on your skating skis?
Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I was remembering you once said you chose skating skis for the
Hardangervedda because their sidecut made it easier for controlling turns on
moderate downhill sections.

(I'm thinking all the Original Poster really needs to do is just purchase
some "kicker skins" for his skating skis.)

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

Same reason I decided not to go for NNN BC (or the Salomon BC): When I
carefully totaled up the extra weight, it just didn't seem worth it. Instead
I've done some long committing tours (and lots of short ones) on my track
Combi boots with SNS bindings.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard.
:-)

You're making it tough for us to find something to "disagree" about.

Ken

Ulrich Hausmann wrote
schrieb Terje Mathisen:
Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route"
has been done with nordic touring skis.
No, no. This year at the Patrouille des glaciers they
made a new record (for the Zermatt - Verbier) 6 hrs
and something. And they did it with the ultralite Dynastar, Dynafit
bindings ...

But I think the rules for the Patrouille race (and most "randonnee races" in
Europe) forbid using NNN BC bindings. So it's possible that somebody in
perfect snow conditions could do it a little faster by using lighter gear
than the race rules permit. Also the race rules for the Patrouille des
Glaciers require each team to carry _lots_ of standard mountain safety
gear -- safety gear which some visiting Norwegian athletes might leave
behind as part of a calculated(?) risk to achieve some new record.

btw I heard from a Chamonix guide who takes parties on the haute route that
the Swiss Army turns the Patrouille route almost into like an artificial
piste cut into the mountain slopes.

Ken

VtSkier wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.
I have a fair number of free-heel friends (though I'm
not one) who will tell you differently.

Sounds like they've never tried the Scarpa F1 boot with a Dynafit binding.

I used to do steeper backcountry in Vermont (e.g. Mt Mansfield + Camels
Hump) and the Adirondacks (e.g. Mt Marcy + Wright) on light leather
"telemark" boots and 3-pin bindings. Now I do them on my Scarpa F1 Alpine
Touring boots.

AT is great coming from an Alpine background, but I would
think that "Light Tele" would be equally great coming from
a touring/cross-country/Nordic background.

Me and all my friends who are delighting in our new Alpine Touring gear all
came from a nordic free-heel background.

Backcountry telemarking is over.
Except in Norway.

Ken

[ Ken Roberts ]

Backcountry telemarking is over.
Except in Norway.

For the record, many people in Norway too are switching to AT,
although it hasn't completely killed telemark yet.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

Ulrich Hausmann wrote:
Am Montag, den 06.11.2006, 20:09 +0100 schrieb Terje Mathisen:

OTOH, with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges
and NNN BC bindings can do it all. Afaik all the fastest traverses of
the "Haute Route" (sp?) has been done with nordic touring skis.

No, no. This year at the Patrouille des glaciers they made a new record
(for the Zermatt - Verbier) 6 hrs and something. And they did it with
the ultralite Dynastar, Dynafit bindings ...

But, sincerely, upward they're running like hell and downward they don't
ski - at least not in a way we would consider skiing. They just come
down :-)

Right. :-)

Thanks for the info!

Terje

Anyway, their equipment isn't what you would consider seriously for a
normal randonnee use.

Personally i've both: small skis with 2/3 metall edges and leather boots
and large (90 at center) but leightweight touring skis with plastic
boots - both with 3-pin :-)

Cheers,

Uli



--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic
on your skating skis?
Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I was remembering you once said you chose skating skis for the
Hardangervedda because their sidecut made it easier for controlling turns on
moderate downhill sections.

The first years was on Fisher skates, more recently on Madshus classic.

(I'm thinking all the Original Poster really needs to do is just purchase
some "kicker skins" for his skating skis.)

Good idea.

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

Same reason I decided not to go for NNN BC (or the Salomon BC): When I
carefully totaled up the extra weight, it just didn't seem worth it. Instead
I've done some long committing tours (and lots of short ones) on my track
Combi boots with SNS bindings.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard.
:-)

You're making it tough for us to find something to "disagree" about.

Good!

Terje

Ken




--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"