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Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 26th 09, 02:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?

One aspect of "New Skate" technique I'm completely neutral on his the
"new" way to double pole.

To quote Justin Freeman's article in FasterSkier:

"You initiate the movement with your shoulder and hips forward, so
that your spine looks approximately like a letter “C.” The motion
is initiated by an activation of the abs which moves the hips and
shoulders towards one another, squishing the “C.”."

A notable aspect of this desription is that it leads to repeated spine
flexion against a load. Recent research seems to be saying this is a
great way to damage your discs (Stuart McGill is the researcher I"m
thinking of).

While the range of motion is relatively small in double poling, I'm
wondering if there's been any noticeable increase in back problems?

(A related interesting point is that many strength coaches (e.g., Mike
Boyle) have now eliminated any type of crunch motions at all, and
limit development of abs to using them as stabilizers (e.g., Plank, ab
wheel) versus movers.)

Jon
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  #2  
Old February 26th 09, 06:30 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bob
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Posts: 73
Default Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?

wrote:
One aspect of "New Skate" technique I'm completely neutral on his the
"new" way to double pole.

To quote Justin Freeman's article in FasterSkier:

"You initiate the movement with your shoulder and hips forward, so
that your spine looks approximately like a letter “C.” The motion
is initiated by an activation of the abs which moves the hips and
shoulders towards one another, squishing the “C.”."

A notable aspect of this desription is that it leads to repeated spine
flexion against a load. Recent research seems to be saying this is a
great way to damage your discs (Stuart McGill is the researcher I"m
thinking of).


Are you confusing spine compressive load with tension load? Compressing
the flexed spine with an external load is exactly what they always tell
you not to do (e.g. "use your legs to lift that heavy box, not your
back") but that's quite different from a double poling movement.

While the range of motion is relatively small in double poling, I'm
wondering if there's been any noticeable increase in back problems?

(A related interesting point is that many strength coaches (e.g., Mike
Boyle) have now eliminated any type of crunch motions at all, and
limit development of abs to using them as stabilizers (e.g., Plank, ab
wheel) versus movers.)


It seems pretty hard to double pole without using your abs as "movers".

Bob
  #3  
Old February 26th 09, 09:43 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 572
Default Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?

I don't know about the 'C,' but most skating is double poling on one
ski and the biggest change there involves poling down into the legs with
ankle flex (knees follow), rather than bending at the back, a la
older style classical double poling. An ab crunch starts the process.

Gene


wrote:

One aspect of "New Skate" technique I'm completely neutral on his the
"new" way to double pole.

To quote Justin Freeman's article in FasterSkier:

"You initiate the movement with your shoulder and hips forward, so
that your spine looks approximately like a letter “C.â€_ The motion
is initiated by an activation of the abs which moves the hips and
shoulders towards one another, squishing the “C.â€_."

A notable aspect of this desription is that it leads to repeated spine
flexion against a load. Recent research seems to be saying this is a
great way to damage your discs (Stuart McGill is the researcher I"m
thinking of).

While the range of motion is relatively small in double poling, I'm
wondering if there's been any noticeable increase in back problems?

(A related interesting point is that many strength coaches (e.g., Mike
Boyle) have now eliminated any type of crunch motions at all, and
limit development of abs to using them as stabilizers (e.g., Plank, ab
wheel) versus movers.)

Jon

  #6  
Old February 28th 09, 03:37 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 28
Default Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?

"Excuse me, I meant is this research with the force being directed
downwards, in the direction as in skiing (a chopping or pulling
movement), or with the force upwards?



I checked the sources I was thinking of ("Ultimate Back Fitness and
Performance") , and it's definitely the crunch motion against a load
that also caused an increase in herniations. And it seems it was
originally thought that full flexion was required to cause herniation,
but recent paper in "Spine" said repeated flexion in the "mid-range"
also causes problems (I didn't see this directly--my chiropractor told
me about it).

In terms of what's going on with a traditional double pole, I always
thought the hip flexors played a big role, while the abs just
stabilized things. This seems similar to using an ab wheel at the
point you pull the wheel back to you--abs get an amazing workout but
spine is still perfectly straight.

Jon
  #7  
Old February 28th 09, 07:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 572
Default Has "C-Shaped" Double Poling Led to Increase In Spine Injuries?

For a guy who was skeptical about the 'new skate,' I'd thought
chiropractors wouldn't be a reference. ;-) The point about the spine
is well taken, tho I don't know the answer. Research in recent years
has been finding that some common back exercises that were thought to
be good, such as back raises, and side-to-side movements of the knees
while on one's back, actually do damage (degenerative changes) to the
spine/back over the long haul. I can't site you any sources, but do
seem to recall an article that Gina Kolata (NYT) or another reporter
did sometime back.

One of the reasons the traditional d-p is no longer recommended was
because of the incidence of back injuries.

Gene


wrote:

"Excuse me, I meant is this research with the force being directed
downwards, in the direction as in skiing (a chopping or pulling
movement), or with the force upwards?



I checked the sources I was thinking of ("Ultimate Back Fitness and
Performance") , and it's definitely the crunch motion against a load
that also caused an increase in herniations. And it seems it was
originally thought that full flexion was required to cause herniation,
but recent paper in "Spine" said repeated flexion in the "mid-range"
also causes problems (I didn't see this directly--my chiropractor told
me about it).

In terms of what's going on with a traditional double pole, I always
thought the hip flexors played a big role, while the abs just
stabilized things. This seems similar to using an ab wheel at the
point you pull the wheel back to you--abs get an amazing workout but
spine is still perfectly straight.

Jon

 




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