mounting pilot bindings
 

Hello,

If you look at your skate skis with bindings mounted on them, can you
discern a difference in the fore-aft position of the bindings between the
two skis. What would you consider the maximum difference in fore-aft
position between the two skis that is acceptable to you? 5mm? 25mm, 1cm?

Now, for the same question side to side. Can you tell if your bindings are
not perfectly centered side-to-side on the ski? Does one side of your pilot
binding line up flush with the edge of the ski, but the other side of the
binding overhangs the edge of ski?

thanks, tom

so, what skis did you get (model? flex?)


nnn wrote:
Hello,

If you look at your skate skis with bindings mounted on them, can you
discern a difference in the fore-aft position of the bindings between the
two skis. What would you consider the maximum difference in fore-aft
position between the two skis that is acceptable to you? 5mm? 25mm, 1cm?

Now, for the same question side to side. Can you tell if your bindings are
not perfectly centered side-to-side on the ski? Does one side of your pilot
binding line up flush with the edge of the ski, but the other side of the
binding overhangs the edge of ski?

thanks, tom

nnn wrote:
Hello,

If you look at your skate skis with bindings mounted on them, can you
discern a difference in the fore-aft position of the bindings between the
two skis. What would you consider the maximum difference in fore-aft
position between the two skis that is acceptable to you? 5mm? 25mm, 1cm?
Hopefully, you bought them this way, and aren't asking because you
mounted them yourself:-)

Unless you can discern the difference when you ski, not a big deal. A
good shoprat will balance the skis and place the bindings accordingly.
As such, if one ski has slightly more/less material on one end it may
affect the balance point.

Now, for the same question side to side. Can you tell if your bindings are
not perfectly centered side-to-side on the ski? Does one side of your pilot
binding line up flush with the edge of the ski, but the other side of the
binding overhangs the edge of ski?

If they were mounted using a jig, they should be pretty square. Unless
they are badly out of line, it won't hurt if they are slightly out.
They should be pretty close though. Your body will adjust
*automatically* to minor misalignments, but if one ski continually
shoots right or left, regardless of which foot it is on, there's a
problem and should be taken to a good ski mechanic.
thanks, tom

Marsh

Yes, it does sound like you mounted the bindings yourself.

bindings are mounted relatively to the ski's center of balance, which
happen to coincide on two skis if the skis are from the same pair. I've
never seen more than ~5 mm difference. On pair of my racing skis has
about that much of the difference in binding position. And, yes, I
mounted them myself, and I'll never do that again (not that I notice
the difference while skiing, but it's just that mounting bindings is
not worth my time)

Speaking of left-right... I've seen, like, 2 mm deviations from the
center. Again, no noticeable effect.

Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance. I've seen
up to 1cm difference in balance points between a pair of race skis (I
sold them), and my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

Gene

wrote:

Yes, it does sound like you mounted the bindings yourself.

bindings are mounted relatively to the ski's center of balance, which
happen to coincide on two skis if the skis are from the same pair. I've
never seen more than ~5 mm difference. On pair of my racing skis has
about that much of the difference in binding position. And, yes, I
mounted them myself, and I'll never do that again (not that I notice
the difference while skiing, but it's just that mounting bindings is
not worth my time)

Speaking of left-right... I've seen, like, 2 mm deviations from the
center. Again, no noticeable effect.

Hello

Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance.

Why should pilot bindings be mounted 1 cm behind the balance point?

my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

The skis are 1/4" different in length or the bindings are offset 1/4"?

thanks, tom

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance. I've seen
up to 1cm difference in balance points between a pair of race skis (I
sold them), and my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

Gene

wrote:

Yes, it does sound like you mounted the bindings yourself.

bindings are mounted relatively to the ski's center of balance, which
happen to coincide on two skis if the skis are from the same pair. I've
never seen more than ~5 mm difference. On pair of my racing skis has
about that much of the difference in binding position. And, yes, I
mounted them myself, and I'll never do that again (not that I notice
the difference while skiing, but it's just that mounting bindings is
not worth my time)

Speaking of left-right... I've seen, like, 2 mm deviations from the
center. Again, no noticeable effect.

1 cm back has to do with the nature of the Pilot bindings, but I don't
know the exact reason. Maybe someone else knows. The skis are 1/4"
different; the bindings are mounted relative to the balance point of the
ski they are on.

Gene

nnn wrote:

Hello

Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance.

Why should pilot bindings be mounted 1 cm behind the balance point?

my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

The skis are 1/4" different in length or the bindings are offset 1/4"?

thanks, tom

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance. I've seen
up to 1cm difference in balance points between a pair of race skis (I
sold them), and my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

Gene

wrote:

Yes, it does sound like you mounted the bindings yourself.

bindings are mounted relatively to the ski's center of balance, which
happen to coincide on two skis if the skis are from the same pair. I've
never seen more than ~5 mm difference. On pair of my racing skis has
about that much of the difference in binding position. And, yes, I
mounted them myself, and I'll never do that again (not that I notice
the difference while skiing, but it's just that mounting bindings is
not worth my time)

Speaking of left-right... I've seen, like, 2 mm deviations from the
center. Again, no noticeable effect.

Hello,

1 cm back has to do with the nature of the Pilot bindings, but I don't
know the exact reason.

Well, I've read that pilot bindings should be:

a) mounted 1cm *forward* of the balance point to move the ski's balance
point between the two bars on the boot.

b) not mounted forward of the balance point, but at the balance point
because the weight of the binding moves the balance point of the combined
ski+binding backwards to a spot between the two bars.

c) and now you say pilot bindings should be mounted 1cm behind the balance
point for an unknown reason.

I'm surprised there is no consensus.

thanks, tom



"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
1 cm back has to do with the nature of the Pilot bindings, but I don't
know the exact reason. Maybe someone else knows. The skis are 1/4"
different; the bindings are mounted relative to the balance point of the
ski they are on.

Gene

nnn wrote:

Hello

Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance.

Why should pilot bindings be mounted 1 cm behind the balance point?

my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

The skis are 1/4" different in length or the bindings are offset 1/4"?

thanks, tom

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Pilot bindings are usually mounted about 1cm back of balance. I've
seen
up to 1cm difference in balance points between a pair of race skis (I
sold them), and my distributor-picked Peltonens are 1/4" different in
length.

Gene

wrote:

Yes, it does sound like you mounted the bindings yourself.

bindings are mounted relatively to the ski's center of balance,
which
happen to coincide on two skis if the skis are from the same pair.
I've
never seen more than ~5 mm difference. On pair of my racing skis has
about that much of the difference in binding position. And, yes, I
mounted them myself, and I'll never do that again (not that I notice
the difference while skiing, but it's just that mounting bindings is
not worth my time)

Speaking of left-right... I've seen, like, 2 mm deviations from the
center. Again, no noticeable effect.

Didn't the bindings come a manual saying how to install them?

"nnn" wrote:
Well, I've read that pilot bindings should be:

a) mounted 1cm *forward* of the balance point to move the ski's balance
point between the two bars on the boot.

b) not mounted forward of the balance point, but at the balance point
because the weight of the binding moves the balance point of the combined
ski+binding backwards to a spot between the two bars.

c) and now you say pilot bindings should be mounted 1cm behind the balance
point for an unknown reason.

I'm surprised there is no consensus.

thanks, tom

I'll take a stab at this. The Pilot binding is tail heavy. A ski with
Pilot bindings mounted at the balance point will have the combined balance
point shifted about 1.5 cm behind the original balance point - a bit tail
heavy, but the secondary bar provides another (sprung) vertical lift point,
so the ski will be lifted level to the ground more or less. A ski with
Profil bindings will retain the original balance point, and will be lifted
from that balance point. Both types of bindings will ski the same in that
you will be pressuring the ski from the same position (retaining the ski's
pressure distribution). Both types will both be more or less level to the
ground in the return phase too.

Mounting bindings away from the balance point requires more consideration
because it changes the pressure distribution of the ski. Skis are designed
so that they work best with bindings mounted at the balance point, but this
ideal may not happen all the time. There are manufacturing variations and
flexes that are all over the place, it's easy to see that maybe the balance
point is not the ideal location for every ski. The NIS system with moveable
binding locations seems like a way to finally address this (for NNN). Zach
Caldwell had a little write up on this system on his website a couple of
weeks back, and I think he found that most of the Madshus that he had on the
system skied best at the balance point, but some skied best with the
bindings farther back, including on that skied best at 1.5 cm back. I
imagine that without adjustable bindings, that ski would have been called a
dud (you know, like the skis you and I buy at retail for $400-500 that are
just plain slow!).

I moved the Pilot bindings on a pair of Madshus back 1.8 cm (to the combined
ski/binding balance point) and turned a pair of bad skis into decent skis
because it improved the pressure distribution on the snow. This ski was
mounted at the balance point originally, with the combined balance point 1.5
cm behind the front pin. It now balances like a Profil binding ski, with
the main bar taking the load of the ski. The return spring doesn't have to
do as much work as it was intended to, so I bottomed out the spring a couple
of times to loosen it up and it balances/skis fine.

So going back to your choices, I would say go with the balance point because
most skis are designed for that, at least theoretically, unless the
manufacturer recommends otherwise. Mounting 1 cm in front of the balance
point would make the ski tail heavy (yes, balance is still between the
bars), but maybe not enough to matter. Going just from my minimal
experience, I would rather mount a binding farther back than forward (seems
to make the ski faster). Note that mounting the bindings 1 cm back would
also result in a combined balance point still between the two bars (maybe
0.7 cm behind the main bar) because of the tail heaviness of the binding.
Maybe this is considered better balanced than mounting at the balance point
(where the combined balance is 1.5 cm behind the main bar) - it makes the
main bar take up more weight, a bit more like the Profil binding in terms of
balance. Atomic's recommendations seem to take this line of reasoning,
though they vary the location by ski length (mount 1 cm behind for 190 cm
skis, 0.5 cm behind for 184 cm skis, and at balance point for 178 cm). I
think Fischer recommends the balance point.