Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation in other threads so I thought I'd make a
synopsis in a new thread.

One of the basic elements of skiing that a *huge*
portion of the skiing population lack is counter rotation.
They rotate, but they don't counter rotate afterward. In
other words, they throw the outside shoulder around in
the direction of the turn to help turn the skis, continuing
this through the finish of the turn. They end the turn
with the outside shoulder moving uphill, and are out of
balance and position to start the new turn.

To explain, further:

Around the 1940's, the technique that was being taught
here in the US was the Arlberg technique. This is
what the 10th Mountain Division was taught, along
with most everyone else. The idea was, you rotate
your shoulders in the direction you want to go, then
the skis will follow. This was an exaggerated rotation,
to the point where the shoulders were parallel to the
skis at the start of a turn.

Some time later, the same Austrians who showed up
with the Arlberg technique years before, began
advocating a turning of the shoulders in the *opposite*
direction you want the skis to go in order to turn the skis.
Sort of like the sixties dance, the "twist". Shoulders go
one way, hips go the other. For every action, is an
opposite reaction.

Thus began a huge over-intellectualized debate in the
sixties about whether you should "rotate" or "counter
rotate". The Americans who had been rotating for
years like the Austrians told them, didn't want to
counter rotate like the Austrians were now (then)
telling them. It wasn't correct. Sound familiar?

Somewhere along the line, apparently without ever
realizing or codifying it, people began to do both.
That is, rotating and counter rotating as they skied.

After that, PSIA decided that they would call counter
rotation "counter". If you say counter rotation in an
exam you'll get docked. It's not correct. I'm not sure
what the correct PSIA term for rotation is, in fact I'm
not sure there is one. I think they/we might be calling
both rotation and counter rotation "counter". But to me,
*this* isn't correct. I hate that word correct, but it's
simply not what people do. You either rotate, or counter
rotate, or both. All skiers do either or both of these all
the time.

Rotation is turning your shoulders in the direction you
want the skis to go, counter rotation is turning the shoulders
in the *opposite* direction you want the skis to go. Either
will turn the skis in the direction you want to go.

"Quiet upper body, keep belly button toward lodge, keep
body facing down the hill, face the lift hut". All these
speak to rotation and counter rotation.

They are *actually* as follows:

If you are connected at the waist (the muscles are tight
so that there is no independent movement between
torso and hips), and you turn your shoulders in the way
you want the skis to go, the skis will turn that way. If you
are disconnected at the waist, (ab and back muscles loose)
and you turn your shoulders the *opposite* way you want
the skis to go, the skis will indeed, go that same way that
you want them to go.

You can turn your skis by turning your shoulders in the
direction you want the skis to go, or in the *opposite*
direction you want the skis to go. Rotation and counter
rotation.

Basically, what people do today is rotate (anticipate?)
through the first half of the turn and counter rotate
(counter?) through the second. Today the skis are turned
more through steering, skidding and the bending of the
ski than by the motion of the shoulders alone. Rotation
and counter rotation are used more for equilibrium of
the body in relation to the skis, than to actually turn
them by turning the shoulders.

But you still can if you want to. Turn your skis with
your shoulders that is. In all these years, the basic
mechanics of skiing haven't changed. They are all still
there for *you* to use any way that *you* want to.
Regardless of what you "should" do, or what is "correct".
All you need to do is understand the basic mechanics
of skiing.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation

Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information

Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or
countered position and putting yourself in one.

Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you
describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with
their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more
than carve.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

Kneale Brownson wrote:

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...

There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation


Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information

Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or
countered position and putting yourself in one.

Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you
describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with
their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more
than carve.

If you're skidding, you're doing it wrong.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message
om...
"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation

Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information

Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or
countered position and putting yourself in one.

Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you
describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with
their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more
than carve.

For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is
a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor. A
decent spokesman if nothing else.

Thanks for the input here, but Kneale, you (whom I'm
constantly pressing for relevant PSIA info and tips via
email, by so doing getting very good stuff) must admit,
that complicated terms aside, all people are doing
today is to rotate through the first half of the turn, and
counter rotate through the second. This is all that quiet
upper body is. It's being made more complicated than it
is.

Also, by not explaining the simple mechanics of this to
the student so they can make their own choices about
how much or how little to use, and when, are actually
doing a disservice to the student.

Instead, the tendency is to tell the student to look and
ski "like this" without ever saying why or what the
real mechanics behind it are.

And again, I'm just missing the distinction you make
between putting yourself in a countered position and
being in one. To me, it's just making something that's
simple unnecessarily complicated.

I guess if nothing else I'm right in that rotation has
become "anticipation" and counter rotation has
become "counter". Why does it have to be renamed?
Why not just call it what it was originally called? The
original terms are more intuitive and illustrative than
the new.

Also, you must admit, the history section of
the post was accurate.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

foot2foot wrote:

It's being made more complicated than it is.

You can say *that* again.

--
//-Walt
//
// The Volkl Conspiracy

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

in article , lal_truckee at
wrote on 11/25/03 9:03 AM:

foot2foot wrote:

For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is
a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor.

He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter
who he is.

He's still a despicable asshole with no moral or ethical standards. Just
like his buddies.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

lal_truckee wrote:

foot2foot wrote:

For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is
a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor.

He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter
who he is.

C'mon lal. When did you convert to the "always carve, all the time"
school?

There are (or should be) lots of tools in the kit - you know that more
than anybody around here.

--
//-Walt
//
// The Volkl Conspiracy

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

foot2foot wrote:

For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is
a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor.

He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter
who he is.

Rotation and Counter Rotation
 

Walt wrote:

lal_truckee wrote:

foot2foot wrote:


For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is
a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor.

He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter
who he is.


C'mon lal. When did you convert to the "always carve, all the time"
school?

There are (or should be) lots of tools in the kit - you know that more
than anybody around here.

Point is: Skid when you want to skid, not because a misapplication of a
particular technique "caused" a skid.

But people were carving long before "carving skis." Nothing to it but
balance and appropriate pressure control, then or now.